How do you think most americans really feel about CIR?

[dsw162]

One of reasons why immigration reform has not passed into law is because many of the politicians claim that they are doing what the american people want. Do you think if the american people had the choice to vote for immigration reform themselves, it would have passed by now? Or do you think it would still be the same mess it is today? Just curious as to what you all think.

[Chula]

they would because doing nothing is oly going to make the situation worse. I am very sad that nothing happen.

[ratito921]

I don't think that the majority of American people know or give a crap about the immigration reform. All they know is that "they're trying to keep these here illegals here to take away from me and mine". It's sad to say, if the decision was given to the American people it would have been voted on and dealt with but I don't think the outcome would be so good. They'd most likely be voting to get it over with.

[Dorothea]

I think Americans want "something" done, to get the issue "taken care of", but I think you're right Ratito, that most Americans have no freaking idea about the real issue. They are uneducated idiots. Ouch!

My biggest problem with peoples' naivety is how EVERYONE seems to think that all illegal immigrants are here collecting welfare and scamming the government out of taxes, etc.
I can't even imagine where they get this idea from. My husband (and all other illegal immigrants I've met) had fake SS#s and therefore paid taxes to THE MAN for all the years they worked here. And never saw a penny of it back like I do. Lucky Uncle Sam!
And have neglected medical issues for fear of seeing a doctor, or paid out of pocket for any medical care received.
UGH... it just makes me want to punch somebody.
Like all those JERKS who write the racist hate mail letters to the editor...

[arcoiris]

I agree wholeheartedly. Illegal immigrants and immigration has been used as a scapegoat for Iraq, gas prices, and a host of other issues the politicians would rather run away from. It was the only issue that could somewhat unite the Republican base in the elections last year. You see how well that worked out. Now they've single handedly created this huge fire-breathing job-taking imaginary dragon out of the issue. That bad old illegal immigration dragon is now flying about taking American jobs, using up all the welfare money, hanging out in the emergency room soaking up all the federal funding. He's also causing all manner of crime in small towns, speaking a ghastly language called Spanish, and scaring all the peasants with his ranchera music. What a bad ol' dragon he is! Now the peasants are all up in arms with the pitchforks and torches! They want that dragon gone!
What politician can tell them that it was all a myth? There's no dragon, I just told you that so you'd forget about that nasty war...sure.

I'm not going to pretend that the last bill was a good bill. It wasn't. It was a bad bill that lived and died a horrible existance. What the people wanted was a solution. That was a majority of what people would always tell me. I have rarely heard anyone ('cept that old hag in the grocery store, may she be cursed with boils and lice) say that they were all in favor of rounding 'em all up. Most people say: "Give 'em papers and get thier butts back to work, pronto." (I have a sneaky suspision that all of those hate faxes, and anit-immigrant emails were really from the same group of people. Peasants with computers...*gasp*...the horrors!) Have you seen the people at the anit-immigration rallies? Mainly retirees terrified that they will not get their social security checks. That's who's making all the calls and writing all of the letters. The rest of us have to work. We work hand in hand with immigrants. We see with our own eyes the fruits of their labor. We also know that without it, we wouldn't have our own jobs. Industy in small towns would have gone to China long ago had it not been for immigrant labor. I doubt my own little town would have gotten a Walmart without our immigrant population.

Sadly, I feel like it will get much worse from here before it gets any better. I forsee more raids, more anti-immigrant state "Juan Crow" laws, and more tilting at windmills. Michael Chertoff himself said as much. He also said he would start jailing the employers. That's just what it's going to take. It's stupid that it will have to get to that point, but all throughout history it has always had to come to that. I wish we could have evolved enough to head that off, but we haven't. The public will have to see tomato pickers being chased around farms. They will have to see children snatched from their parents. I truly fear the KKK these days.
My biggest fear is that an entire generation of Hispanics will become bitter. Instead of making a clean, swift transition with a reform, we will create a generation with an ax to grind. I worry for my son. I worry about an employer tossing his job application just because of his last name. I had hoped to integrate and assimilate seamlessly into mainstream society without all this fuss, without resentment, and without creating a servant class. I had hoped that we could have learned from the mistakes of past generations. I hope it's still possible.
Ok, I'm putting away my scrying glass and heading off the fix breakfast.

[Laura]

Good comments. I think honestly that most of those people who just blindly believe the rhetoric of "illegal alienz stealing jobs Americans want and collecting welfare checks and never paying a dime in taxes etc, etc, etc" can actually be talked out of those ideas with a little good arguing.

I think I've successfully convinced most of my extended family that these things are not true. AND, one most important point that most people don't realize is that there is usually NO LEGAL AVENUE for these low-skilled laboring peoples from poorer nations to come to the U.S. legally. I had a fascinating conversation about this with my half brother a week or two ago. He was shocked, I mean, totally, completely :ah: shocked, that a person couldn't just apply to come to the U.S. and work. I explained that you can basically come as a relative of a USC (which can take forever in some cases) or have an employer petition for you (which explains why some high-tech companies have a lot of engineers from India, China, etc). And then there are the smaller categories like asylum, and then non-immigrant visas... But, he was totally shocked. He thought people could just immigrate legally, and didn't really understand that the U.S. doesn't just let anyone in on their own merits.

So, I think it's really, really important that people who understand the system a little better (like us) talk to people in our circles when these issues come up, especially because now we are needing to totally change the national discussion in order to get a better CIR bill in a year or two. A lot of people will ask me if I am disappointed about CIR failing, and that's an opportunity to talk about what was wrong with the bill and what we need.

And in response to the initial question, I agree wholeheartedly with what was said, most Americans have no freaking clue about the realities of the issue.... so we have to convert them to compassionate, understanding people! :o

[IBMMuseum]

...Sadly, I feel like it will get much worse from here before it gets any better. I forsee more raids, more anti-immigrant state "Juan Crow" laws, and more tilting at windmills. Michael Chertoff himself said as much. He also said he would start jailing the employers. That's just what it's going to take. It's stupid that it will have to get to that point, but all throughout history it has always had to come to that. I wish we could have evolved enough to head that off, but we haven't. The public will have to see tomato pickers being chased around farms. They will have to see children snatched from their parents. I truly fear the KKK these days.
My biggest fear is that an entire generation of Hispanics will become bitter. Instead of making a clean, swift transition with a reform, we will create a generation with an ax to grind. I worry for my son. I worry about an employer tossing his job application just because of his last name. I had hoped to integrate and assimilate seamlessly into mainstream society without all this fuss, without resentment, and without creating a servant class. I had hoped that we could have learned from the mistakes of past generations. I hope it's still possible.

I think it will jade more than just the Hispanic population. When ICE doesn't care that they grabbed up the wrong person with a similiar name (http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/63544.html) and heavy-handed raids violating the civil rights of citizens and legal residents it makes me feel very angry. Just my true feelings about an ICE spokeswoman saying "But I can tell you that if they are in ICE custody, they are deportable." (for the Santa Fe mistaken identity case) has me fit to be tied.

[IBMMuseum]

...I think honestly that most of those people who just blindly believe the rhetoric of "illegal alienz stealing jobs Americans want and collecting welfare checks and never paying a dime in taxes etc, etc, etc" can actually be talked out of those ideas with a little good arguing...

I don't have quite the hope you do. Too many are terminally uninformed, and it will never improve with "MinuteKlan" and "ALICRAPPER" forum members continually repeating statements proven wrong time and time again to lead them astray. Even the rare immigrant members from non-Hispanic countries lash out to say that Hispanic legal immigrants are gaining their visas and citizenship through corrupt methods ahead of them.

You expect that many of these "English-Only" advocates that consistantly spell 'thier', 'illeagel', 'boarders', etc. can be educated? I say much of that opportunity was missed 60 years ago for them. They can have the true facts right in front of them and will still try to call *every* Senator (not just the two that represent them) over the "injustice" that they experienced because someone was supporting the "invaders" by buying tortillas in front of them at the grocery store.

[Dorothea]

It's impossible to make people really listen.
You can talk to someone about the issues of immigration til your blue in the face. I do it ALL the time, take a little time out of my day to "educate" them, but IBMMuseum, you have a point: It's pretty much in one ear and out the other.
Most people are shocked and appalled for about the length of the conversation, and then carry on in their anti-immigrant ways, even if they don't realize it's so.

For example, my father, one of the kindest most compassionate men I know, who dearly dearly loves my husband, sends me awful racist forwards about how immigrants are "changing" America (Gasp!) often enough that I've noticed. I think half of the problem is that he just doesn't PAY ATTENTION, but isn't that the point?!?!?!?!
It's the same as sending forwards about how all people against the war in Iraq are anti-American, anti-troops... I am against the war in Iraq. I PERSONALLY think it's pointless loss of American lives, not to mention the thousands of civilians (guilty of being gullible or not) killed in the Middle East. And it's only making things WORSE.
Well, anyway, somewhere in here my point was lost...
Anyway, Laura, you are right, every tiny little change we can make in people is a very worthwhile one, and so I will always keep trying to educate people. But I'll sadly always be upset by the ones who just can't hear what their hatred is doing to America...

[sam1010]

Honestly I don't think that people really care or have any idea about the immigration reform. I don't think it would have passed even if Americans would have been allowed to vote on it. Too many Americans are misinformed or too opinionated in the opposite direction to understand that the new law would have helped to keep some families together.

[arcoiris]

You expect that many of these "English-Only" advocates that consistantly spell 'thier', 'illeagel', 'boarders', etc. can be educated? I say much of that opportunity was missed 60 years ago for them. They can have the true facts right in front of them and will still try to call *every* Senator (not just the two that represent them) over the "injustice" that they experienced because someone was supporting the "invaders" by buying tortillas in front of them at the grocery store.

On that note, some of those Senators had threats made against them. Now, I wonder which side was responsible for that?

Yeah, I love to hit the forums after an immigration article so that I can snark about their grammer and spelling.

[Laura]

I don't have quite the hope you do. Too many are terminally uninformed, and it will never improve with "MinuteKlan" and "ALICRAPPER" forum members continually repeating statements proven wrong time and time again to lead them astray. Even the rare immigrant members from non-Hispanic countries lash out to say that Hispanic legal immigrants are gaining their visas and citizenship through corrupt methods ahead of them.

You expect that many of these "English-Only" advocates that consistantly spell 'thier', 'illeagel', 'boarders', etc. can be educated? I say much of that opportunity was missed 60 years ago for them. They can have the true facts right in front of them and will still try to call *every* Senator (not just the two that represent them) over the "injustice" that they experienced because someone was supporting the "invaders" by buying tortillas in front of them at the grocery store.

I guess what I am saying is MOST people can be changed. I am not talking about the vehement anti-immigrant folks, I am talking about those who might not know much about the situation, but also don't have the tendency to hate people and believe all the crazy Lou Dobbs-style rhetoric.

Personally, I've talked to a lot of people in the last year that were shocked by some factual things about undocumented workers here, and the thing is, I speak from experience working and living with these people, and the average American has no actual encounters with them, or at least none that are significant enough to matter. So when you speak from experience, it's a lot harder for them to deny what your saying and keep believe all the crap the media puts out there.

Again, I'm not saying the people on those anti-immigrant forums, and the ones who have already made up their mind to hate can be changed, but they are not the majority either. They are just the loudest. The majority know little, and don't care, and may have the vague idea from mainstream media that immigrants take jobs and don't pay taxes. I think there is a big difference between those two groups.

[IBMMuseum]

I guess what I am saying is MOST people can be changed. I am not talking about the vehement anti-immigrant folks, I am talking about those who might not know much about the situation, but also don't have the tendency to hate people and believe all the crazy Lou Dobbs-style rhetoric.

Personally, I've talked to a lot of people in the last year that were shocked by some factual things about undocumented workers here, and the thing is, I speak from experience working and living with these people, and the average American has no actual encounters with them, or at least none that are significant enough to matter. So when you speak from experience, it's a lot harder for them to deny what your saying and keep believe all the crap the media puts out there.

Again, I'm not saying the people on those anti-immigrant forums, and the ones who have already made up their mind to hate can be changed, but they are not the majority either. They are just the loudest. The majority know little, and don't care, and may have the vague idea from mainstream media that immigrants take jobs and don't pay taxes. I think there is a big difference between those two groups.

Let me put it this way. Many that didn't have an opinion against CIR (the misnomer that wasn't about being Comprehensive, had little to do with Immigration, and wouldn't have Reformed it; it was all about work visas) also did little to support it. And now they think more Americans are against it for those few that did say something.

If they didn't shake loose last time what will get them involved the next time? Rather than more support which I don't think will be as plentiful, I think the next bill has to work on lessening opposition. That will be hard work, as the forces that did mobilize against CIR are fully anti-immigrant, legal or illegal makes absolutely no difference to them in the end.

[slubberry]

Most of the people I talk with don't like CIR because they are tired of dealing with a immigration bill that is supposed to "once and for all, fix the immigration mess." They see this as another validation to many of the illegal immigrants' notion "if you wait, about 10 or so years, immigration laws change to benefit us."

Most people that I talked with about immigration reform have the same reaction...NOT AGAIN!?!? They don't seem to care about the "tough language" in the new laws because they don't see the government following through like all the other times that they didn't. Most also believe that whatever bill passes, it will be more of the same so they don't really care if it passes or not.

[maru1979]

People will not care about this until it affects them personally. It is sad to say but the truth.

[Coventrated]

Most of the people I talk with don't like CIR because they are tired of dealing with a immigration bill that is supposed to "once and for all, fix the immigration mess." They see this as another validation to many of the illegal immigrants' notion "if you wait, about 10 or so years, immigration laws change to benefit us."

Most people that I talked with about immigration reform have the same reaction...NOT AGAIN!?!? They don't seem to care about the "tough language" in the new laws because they don't see the government following through like all the other times that they didn't. Most also believe that whatever bill passes, it will be more of the same so they don't really care if it passes or not.

My thought exactly, nobody trusts the Government.

Quite funny to think anybody would believe them when they can not even issue Passports in a reasonable time.

I do not like the use of the term anti immigrant, I am sure there are such people out there, most say, and I believe them, it is those without documentation. Which in a post 9/11 world seems not unreasonable.

I think they should make baby steps, probably the fist one would be a secure form of National ID, not a Drivers License or SSN.

Much much easier to sell if you can get over the confidence factor.

And much better to do it now than as some over reaction to the next terrorist incident.

[Dorothea]

maru, i think you are right.

today there was another racist anti-immigrant letter in the local newspaper again. he mentioned how the "amnesty" and "automatic citizenship" granted in the proposed immigration reform would be disasterous to America. Very depressing read first thing in the morning.

I don't know, people just cant read. The paper has even mentioned the bill not offering citizenship to illegal immigrants....