It's time to stand up!

[ohcelia]

I was thinking of the things that are said about this Immigration Bill. How this Senator from here want it this way and this Senator wants it that way. Now it really does not matter. Once again those 12 million lost. This is what I do not understand about the losing side (Illegal Immigrate). They needed to do
a real impact in America. That 1 day of marching did not even make a dent in America. If every Illegal worker would have stoped working for 1 week,
America would have felt the hand of the Illegal! To me they were afraid of losing the jobs. Losing their homes, losing their families. I can understand that,
now that they are really cracking down on Immigration, They losing everything
they were afraid to lose, anyway!
The dishwashers,the cooks, the field workers,the maids, the gardeners, the laborer in construction, the Nana's and the tomato picker.. Stop! It's time to unite. I would like the Goverment to take Americans to the fields and let them pick and sort the friuts and veggies of America. I'll put my own son in the front of the bus, and I can honestly say he'll quit the first day.
If all 12 million united together just for a week, I do believe The United States will feel the impact, then something will be done in Washington..
To be continued..........

[Laura]

Ohcelia,

I think you are right. A week of "striking," if you can call it that, would create serious economic impact. However, undocumented immigrants are far too scared to not go to their jobs, and most would not see the point in losing that much money. Because of their underground status, they are less willing than other Americans to "exercise their rights," which many Americans do not believe they actually have in this country anyway.

Most do not share the same level of optimism about the power of freedom and individual rights and organizing. There are certainly exceptions, but most just want to be able to work and go about their business. Not to say they shouldn't be given an opportunity for legalization, because I think they most certainly should, but that bill was not a win for anyone, and I'm not sorry to see it go. As a person in your community, make it a point to talk to people about immigration issues. There are SO many people who do not understand the immigration system in this country.

I was talking to my half brother recently, and he had NO IDEA that anyone who wanted couldn't just apply to come to the U.S. and work. I had to explain to him like three times that really, had my husband not married me, as an example, he had no means to live here legally. The number of people I encounter that don't understand the reality of our immigration system and the economic demands of this country is stunning. As people who understand the issue, we need to talk to everyone we can, lest they start watching some really bad talk radio and get their ideas there.

(rant over.) :shy:

[MistyB]

Part of the problem is Mexico. You have suggested that people are un-educated about our immigration system.

Mexico needs to step it up on their end as well. This shouldnt just be an isolated United States issue.

I do not have a statistic of how many mexican people leave their country on a given day, but does it not bother the native citizens of their country that so many are leaving? They are leaving their way of life behind, their families, etc.

What is Mexico's stand on the US immigration policy? I am deeply curious because I havent heard anything about that in the news.

Anyone know?

[DaveH]

Ohcelia, what about the one simple fact that they are illegal. What did this country do years ago when there weren't so many illegals. Who did all the jobs people supposedly didn't want? The low end jobs went to people just entering the job market. High school kids, college kids needing money for tuition etc.. Now we hear how they can't find work because someone who isn't supposed to be here in the first place took the job.

I'll be glad when law enforcement starts enforcing the laws. Employers need to get hammered hard when they are caught with USC imposters. That would have a two fold positive affect. One, Americans would be hired for American jobs. Two, the illegals would go back home and straighten out their own country instead of running away from it.

Misty, did you know the Mexican government gives people who are going to cross the border illegally maps and directions of where to go? The Mexican government doesn't care. They know most of what crosses the border illegally they don't want anyway. Make it our problem is their motto. A while back Mexico's president Mr. Fox was interviewed and was asked about that. His response was his people can move about freely in their country and go where they please. He was asked if that also includes being able to freely move across the border violating the soveirnty of another nation. He basically said he didn't care. If you want to see how many cross on a given day go to San Ysidro at night. Watch the stampede when the lights go out.

[MistyB]

Why am I not surprised?

[Laura]

Ohcelia, what about the one simple fact that they are illegal. What did this country do years ago when there weren't so many illegals. Who did all the jobs people supposedly didn't want? The low end jobs went to people just entering the job market. High school kids, college kids needing money for tuition etc.. Now we hear how they can't find work because someone who isn't supposed to be here in the first place took the job.

Where did you "hear" this? I was a restaurant manager for a long time. I had an extremely difficult time finding employees. Do you really think most employers would chose to hire non-English speaking workers for the sort of jobs high school and college kids would do if they could? This statement is preposterous, and if you are going to state something like this, at least back it up with some facts or experience.

I'll be glad when law enforcement starts enforcing the laws. Employers need to get hammered hard when they are caught with USC imposters. That would have a two fold positive affect. One, Americans would be hired for American jobs. Two, the illegals would go back home and straighten out their own country instead of running away from it.



Misty, did you know the Mexican government gives people who are going to cross the border illegally maps and directions of where to go?

This is a myth perpetuated by anti-immigrant groups and is not true. Actually, I dare you to provide some actual evidence of this...

They know most of what crosses the border illegally they don't want anyway.

These are fighting words Dave. A number (perhaps the majority) of the members on this forum are married to men and women who are or at one time were undocumented workers from Mexico and other nations. We love our families and care about people because they are PEOPLE, not simply because they are from the U.S.

[MistyB]

How do you know this is not true?

Why isnt Mexico doing more to stop the immigrants from crossing? Not a snotty question there as I am very curious to know the answer.

[Laura]

Because I've talked to many, many immigrants about their experiences crossing the border. They pay a coyote, a smuggler essentially, to lead them through the desert/border area in safe places. There is a whole complicated, involved business of human smuggling, but "maps" from the Mexican gov't? No. Any immigrant who would set off on his own to cross the border with a map is already deceased or caught.

I'm not saying Mexico doesn't need reform, I truly wish it were not the way it is, that people were able to survive and prosper in their own country. Many Americans feel that Mexicans and other immigrants are just dying to come here to participate in our inflated pride in "America." In my experience the vast majority of immigrants just come here because they want to work, and they know there are jobs.

If there weren't jobs, these people would not be here, and it is far too simplistic to say that these jobs would just miraculously be filled by students if there weren't a lot of low-skilled workers in the country. Are college kids going to pick broccoli and strawberries in the fields in their afternoons off? Are high schoolers going to go home from school and head off to clean hotel rooms? This country is changing. Most kids don't want those jobs, and if their parents are not going to make them do whatever job is available, they are not going to fill the positions currently filled by immigrants. Most youth aspire to go to college now, and if not, they go to trade school or get an associate degree so they don't have to do the sorts of jobs we need immigrant labor to do. I wonder how many people here would like their children to grow up and do the sort of jobs most immigrants do. We want better for our children, and the fact is, most immigrants can make tons more money (even though it may seem like peanuts to most Americans) working in the U.S. than they can in Mexico. So why deny them that chance?

This nation has always been a nation of immigrants. Unless any of us here are descended from Native Americans, we are all here because somewhere along the line, our grandparents or great-great-grandparents gave up their lives in another country to come to America. They didn't need a visa, they didn't need to go through five years of forms and exorbitant fees in order to immigrate to the U.S., and they certainly did not need to have special skills. They just came here, registered, set up a life, and worked. I'm not saying we can go back to that free of a system today, but what we have now is a mockery of the founding ideals of America.

What we needs is expanded legal immigration, and a program through which workers can enter the country and work while allowed to travel back and forth and have a shot at legalizing if they so desire. Mexico certainly needs to deal with it's own internal issues, but it's highly ironic that our free trade agreements allow U.S. companies to have freedom to do whatever they want in Mexico, in many cases to the detriment of the Mexican economy, yet Mexican labor is supposedly not wanted here.

[ujcdv]

Misty,

I remember a news article that said that the Mexican government were calling their people who crossed the border illegally "heroes". Because they were sending money back to their families. These people risked life and limb to cross the desert, then deal with the anti-immigrant people here to get work they could not get in their home country.

By doing this, Mexico labeled these people heroes. So SOME of what Dave say's is correct. But the tone of his post is that he is against ANYONE who comes here without documentation including your spouse.

Illegal immigration is not just about Mexico, it's about the process to come here legally or with the proper government documentation.

In my opinion, if what the anti-immigrant groups really want is to stop illegal immigration and for people to come here legally, then the proper and correct way to do it is to make the process easier, more affordable and quicker. But lets not fool ourselves, that's not what those people/groups really want. Just look at all the hate these people/groups are pushing. It's really sad.

[DaveH]

Ohcelia, I take it you beleive its ok to break the laws of this country when it suits ones desires? I was married to someone who was from Mexico so don't go down that trail. Her immigration process was done in accordance with the law. No kangarooing across the border, none of that. When you took your oath of citizenship, if you are one, did you bother to read what it says?

The reason its difficult to get people in your restaurant is the general mind set of most Americans. The illegals are going to take the low paying jobs and the employer will only pay an illegal wage, so why apply. The idiot employers keep hiring them. Do you have any idea how severe the penalties are for aiding and abetting an illegal are? Read up on it. You may not be so willing to do it anymore if the laws were enforced. I say again, who did these jobs before the flood of illegals came over? We did. I guarantee you the pay would increase overnight for brocolli pickers. If it does, good. By lowering the overall wages earned it lowers the standard of living for everyone. This is part of the negative affect of hiring illegals. Read up on macro economics

UJCDV, a true american. Your right. Illegal immigration should be stopped. I don't mind people coming over using proper channels. At least we can pick and choose who we want. If someone breaks the law, jumps the border, we have no way of knowing what they are. Im inclined to beleive they know they would not be permitted if they applied correctly. Would anyone invite a total stranger into their house, no. Especially if the person didn't even bother knocking on the front door. Worse, they snuck in through an open window.

Mexico along with many countries south of our border need fixing from within. Many of those governements don't bother since they know if things get bad enough for someone they will go north. There by skirting their responsibility to their own country.

Its not a myth about Mexico helping their people leave. The routes across the border are marked for their use. Between San Diego and El centro there are water stations set up in the desert. Ive seen them with my own eyes. Who are those for? To clarify something. Im not in favour of letting people die in the desert. However, setting up water stations and providing other means of enabling lawbreaking, your only going to get more lawbreakers.

The easiest way to stop it is to take away the reason to come here illegally in the first place. The illegal job market needs to be cut off. As an employer I could find ways to skirt the law and get cheap labor for half what I pay now. I won't because I do care about my country.

[Laura]

The reason its difficult to get people in your restaurant is the general mind set of most Americans. The illegals are going to take the low paying jobs and the employer will only pay an illegal wage, so why apply.

I'm talking about jobs paying between $7.00 and $10.00 per hour. Are those "illegal" wages? My husband hasn't worked for less than $10.00 per hour in years. At his last job he was making $13 per hour. Is that "illegal?"



I guarantee you the pay would increase overnight for brocolli pickers. If it does, good. By lowering the overall wages earned it lowers the standard of living for everyone. This is part of the negative affect of hiring illegals. Read up on macro economics.

Sure, but the standard of living would actually go down for all American because we would be paying ridiculously more than before for broccoli and wasting broccoli in the fields because there would be a shortage of people to pick it. Our unemployment rate is not especially high right now.. who do you think would be clamoring to pick broccoli???


UJCDV, a true american.


All Americans are entitled to their own opinions. Am I not a true American because I disagree with you, and think we should open our borders more and return to traditional, historical American views on immigration???



Its not a myth about Mexico helping their people leave. The routes across the border are marked for their use. Between San Diego and El centro there are water stations set up in the desert. Ive seen them with my own eyes. Who are those for?


Those water stations are set up by human rights groups and charities (http://www.humaneborders.org/about/about_wstations.html) that don't ACTUALLY want people to die in the desert. Not having water is not going to stop anyone from trying to cross. Where do you get the idea these stations are set up by the Mexican gov't? Please provide some prove for what you are saying.

[DaveH]

Ok laura I think what I said needs to be clarified. As far as illegal wages, what I did not mean was sub-minimum wage. If an illegal was paid 7.00 an hour a USC would probably get 10.00 and so forth. The wages would just be higher across the board.

You are mistaken about the standard of living going down. Initially the price of brocelli would go up. Not that I care, can't stand the stuff. Lets use strawberries instead. If the price goes up due to the cost of labor what happens next? The farmers would try to figure out another way to bring the price down. As with any business the owner looks for ways to produce their widgets at a better price. In farming there has been a lot done to modernize the process with machinery etc. This would probably push the farmers to find a better way to pick the produce instead of using manual labor. Its done for a lot of other types produce like corn and weat. The farmers know a basket of strawberries that used to sell for 2.00 would go bad sitting on the shelf if the price were 10.00. Its in their best interest to find a way.

I agree, We as Americans do have the right to say pretty much what ever is on our minds. At least we agree on that. Not on opening our borders wholesale though.

Im aware the water stations are not set up by Mexico on our side of the border. Sorry for the confusion. It was part of the point that there is some enabling going on that should not be. The groups doing it are in viloation of federal law for doing it though.

[Laura]

Im aware the water stations are not set up by Mexico on our side of the border. Sorry for the confusion. It was part of the point that there is some enabling going on that should not be. The groups doing it are in viloation of federal law for doing it though.

What law are you talking about? Are you talking about the immigration bill, HR4437, that passed the House but not the Senate last year? That is not law, although you are right that it would have made people like me, in any sort of relationship with people you consider "illegal," criminals. There may be local laws that prevent such behavior, but I think you are mistaken that it is Federal law.

I'm going to let the rest of the discussion lie, for now anyway. At least we can agree to disagree.

[DaveH]

The law I was refering to is Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii) and INA 274A(a)(1)(A). I would also guess some of them have been set up on private property without the land owners consent or knowledge. Would it matter if there were only local laws being violated? The law is the law, local, state, or fed. What I consider as criminal is a violation of the law. However, not to come across holier than thou. I do think if a person violates a law and tries to correct it they should be afforded some leaway. Hence the reason for the waiver process.

[pen1137]

i dunno, but if i saw a car wreck, the driver being drunk (illegal) and bleeding, i would do my upmost to help him/her regardless. isn't that just a human nature thing?

[ujcdv]

UJCDV, a true american. Your right. Illegal immigration should be stopped. I don't mind people coming over using proper channels. At least we can pick and choose who we want. If someone breaks the law, jumps the border, we have no way of knowing what they are. Im inclined to beleive they know they would not be permitted if they applied correctly. Would anyone invite a total stranger into their house, no. Especially if the person didn't even bother knocking on the front door. Worse, they snuck in through an open window.


DaveH

I don't look at this issue like you do. Don't mind people coming over using the proper channels? That is so far from the truth it's misleading. The U.S. gov is doing everything it can to keep people from coming here. They just raised the fee's, they changed the laws about the I-130, for the I-601/212 you have to prove extreme hardship to get a waiver for your spouse? Come on! Our government is basically exiling it's own citizens just because of who they married?

I have not read anything yet that say's "We should make it easier and simpler for people from other countries to come here so that way we know who they are". People from Latin American and other parts of the world are going to come here regardless of some silly regulatory law. If we as a country really wanted to know who they are for security reasons or what not, why is it that the gov is deporting people left and right who are not a security threat? Why does the government take years to do security checks on someone who is in the U.S.? Why the big stink in congress limiting legal immigration and changing it from family based to merit based?

Why? Because the United States doesn't want anybody to come here anymore. And people from poorer countries are coming whether the country likes it or not, with or without documentation. We can either welcome them with open arms and get these people acclimated to our society, or we can turn them into enemies by tearing apart their families, imprisoning these people then kicking them out and telling them never come back. Along with their U.S. citizen children, and spouses.

Edit ****
Oh and just so everyone knows, I'm pro-immigrent and use this site like everyone else here does. I'm going through this immigration BS with my family just like everyone else here.
Edit ****

[ladyliberty]

This discussion is sad to see on immigrate2us.net. Even in the "soap box" thread. This forum was created to help everyone through the immigration process, which is long, scary, sad, humiliating and stressful beyond imagination. We should be supporting each other, not arguing about which immigrants should be "allowed" to come into the United States.

I vow to respect everyone's views, however ignorant they may be and however tempted I am to dispute someone's claims and call them NASTY names, and use this forum to help, not hurt. I hope you others will agree.

[Laura]

This discussion is sad to see on immigrate2us.net. Even in the "soap box" thread. This forum was created to help everyone through the immigration process, which is long, scary, sad, humiliating and stressful beyond imagination. We should be supporting each other, not arguing about which immigrants should be "allowed" to come into the United States.


I suppose this is true, but the conversation was started as a motivation to do something to work for changed laws, which most here agree is noble and necessary, and was hijacked with this and other offensive comments:

They know most of what crosses the border illegally they don't want anyway.

In my opinion this comment is offensive, apparently meant to offend many of the members of this forum. Dave has the right to his opinion, but I don't think we should have to let those things be said without further argument. Besides, a number of the things he was stating are half-truths or factually false, the sort of things we here on anti-immigration forums and such.

[ladyliberty]

Laura, I totally agree with you. I was writing with my tongue in my cheek (what is the equivalent of that when you are writing?) in the hopes that this guy and others seek out anti-immigrant friends when wanting to vent their hurtful views. I was hurt by what he wrote as I'm sure others were as well (you too!) I was tell him how I felt in a funny way without calling him an a-hole like I wanted to. :blush:

[Laura]

Gotcha! :grinning:

[DaveH]

This is going off the deep end. Of course our country has to limit the number of people coming in. If you think it should be open borders, well you can think that, we'll disagree, no biggie. It doesn't have to become such an emotionally charged issue. If someone disagrees don't start throwing out the canned labels. I think that is where things went sideways. No one is trying to be offensive, least of all me.

What I meant about Mexico not wanting their people was this. Their government doesn't want to do much for their own people who are having a hard time. So, for them its easier to point them north. This is an opinion I have based on knowing people from there and at one being married to one.

If our government desired to stop immigration all together, they would stop it all together. It wouldn't take much creative thinking to figure out a justification. As with everything, there is no unlimited supply. The Gov needs to make the decisions as to who can pass and who can't. How they make those decisions and based on what merits are what causes heated debate. Those decisions are based on what is good for this country. As far as the fees going up its just like everything else. Its gotten more expensive, thats all. No evil intent there. The people working at USCIS need to get paid to. Has anyone here not received a raise in the last five or so years? Who pays for those raises? The customers pay for it. In this we or whomever is using the system is the customer.

I agree the waiver process doesn't seem to take into consideration what a person would think a hardship is. Who doesn't think being separated from their spouse is a hardship? The basis for much of it seems to focus on money. If you don't have enough you can't fight your case. If you have too much you can't show a hardship. So, which is it? Actually I think its neither. Please don't take this the wrong way. I believe the idea is to provide a disincentive for marrying someone from a foreign country to begin with. Just a thought. And no, I don't agree with it if that is the case.

Lauren, If you think anything Im saying is half truths, point them out to me. If Im wrong and you have something to show to back it up, Im all ears.
Im not beyond correction.

What got me to respond to the original posting was the absolute disrespect for the law as it stands. We may not like it but it is there for a purpose. We as a civilized people can not choose to respect some laws and break others without consequence. Otherwise how can we expect laws to be upheld when it is to our benefit.

I came here because I do have a immigration situation. I also believe in following all the rules regardless if it causes inconvenience or not.

[egonzalez1975]

I guess I get confused when people get fixated on "illegal" immigrants who cross the Mexico-U.S. border. WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE OTHER NOW 'ILLEGAL" IMMIGRANTS WHO CAME IN LEGAL AND HAVE SINCE FAILED TO "RESPECT" THE LAWS THAT SO WONDERFULLY HELPED THEM AND HAVE NOT REMAINED IN GOOD STANDING?????? (usually from not continuing to turn in paperwork once they reach here, heck my husband would have that's for sure but he would have NEVER gotten that opportunity) Where are they working? How are they paying their bills? They are obviously working here illegally. So, why aren't we seeing all these "true Americans" all up in arms over them? There are millions of unaccounted visa and greencard holders from EVERY country on the planet and if you added them all up against the Mexicans it would be a close race.

There are so many who are soooooo worried about all the jobs that are being taken by the illegals--blah, blah, blah. However, and I will give an example, my sister runs Section 8 housing here in Kansas City and 93% of the tenants in her housing development are here from Africa and the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) 356 Units. Here's the thing: most of them (not all) but most have their housing subsidized by the government (which means the gov't pays a portion or all of their rent), receive food stamps, and medicaid. And, the truth is there are millions of people like this here as well. Why are they allowed to enter this country and then immediately take advantage of public resources that my taxes have been paying into for years? Do you not think that between the housing, food stamps, and medicaid that they are not a bigger drain on our system than Mexican immigrants who entered EWI and working for peanuts at jobs that you and your children wouldn't take? Trust me I did not mention the race of these people because I have an issue that they are here. My point was that there is not 1 "illegal" Mexican using this on any of her properties because they can't receive these benefits.

And, finally I think that you, DaveH, need to know why for one my husband entered EWI. So here goes. My father-in-law was a very proud man who worked every day of his life as a mechanic and provided what he could for his family. They didn't have a lot of money but they got by. Well, in approximately 1995 my FIL was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure and he had asthma since childhood. As a nurse I know that combined this is very tolling on the human body. Anyway, his father could no longer work because he was unable to breathe. So my young husband who was still a child himself, his mother, and his sister began making and selling tortas in their home and then selling them in the medians of the roads in their town. It wasn't enough to cover the household bills and the mounting medical bills since his fathers health was declining rapidly. And, most know that if you don't have money in hand for medical treatment in Mexico then you die!!!! So, my husband felt he had no alternative but to come to the United States because the family could no longer afford to buy his fathers medications. So, off to the US he went and although his father passed away February 19, 1999(RIP) he was able to have his parents together for a few extra years by sending money to them for the medicine and the bills.

I don't expect you to be wiping tears as you read this story. I do however expect you to realize that you would NEVER be put in that position here in the US (most of us anyway). You could walk into any emergency room and receive treatment. You can always find some sort of job regardless of the amount of illegals here. You can receive assistance from the government or get on disability, food stamps, housing, medicare/medicaid, etc. So, in all reality you could never imagine or comprehend some of the hardships faced there even if you are married to someone from Mexico. It doesn't give you some divine knowledge. If I would have been in my husbands shoes (and I'm sure you would have also) I would have done the same thing as him. When you are so desperate that you feel there are no other options and you aren't holding up a bank or robbing houses then what really did it hurt? He didn't enter thinking how he was going to cause the loss of jobs or wages to plummit.

I just think that as a whole Americans are so weak. We take the group who really has no voice and attack it because our system as a whole is broken. From the top all the way down. If you want to take one facet of the US and make it responsible for the problems here then go ahead. It just shows the level of education that you have. It's great to have knowledge on one thing but powerful to have knowledge on many!!!!!!

[slubberry]

The Mexican government, like the U.S. government, turn a blind eye to illegal immigration because of money. Remittances to Mexico from illegal immigrants from Mexico account for the 2nd largest source of foreign income only after oil. The U.S. benefits from the cheaper labor of the illegal immigrants and it benefits the U.S. economy in the short term only. Here is an interesting article about some of the drains on the U.S. economy in the medium and long term ( keep in mind it was a study done by the CIS which opposes granting amnesty to illegals ):http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalcoverage.html.

Also keep in mind that there are other studies done by the Federal Reserve and the USCIS that also substantiate some of the claims of the article.

Most economic studies I've read seem to support the mentality that illegal immigrants depress the overall income but not all studies find that this is a bad thing. Some studies suggest that it helps keep inflation in check, other studies suggest that it gives the U.S. consumers more purchasing power, and others suggest that it helps us in the global economy. But all studies agree that it comes at a cost, either the long term or in human costs.

Mexico and the other Latin American countries are the target because that's the face that every day Americans see. Even during the "rallies" most were waiving flags of Latin American countries and chanting in Spanish. Most Americans and illegal immigrants view the word "bilingual" as English / Spanish. This is the face that the illegal immigration proponents have thrust onto the American public. Mind you, this is on a national level. If you go into local communities, there is a simillar mindset against Asian, Eastern Europeans, African, and Middle Eastern nationalities but again, in the national level, the faces thrust upon us by the media ( as well as the proponents ) have been mostly of Hispanic origin.

[egonzalez1975]

I do agree with some of what was said slubberry. However, it is up to the American people to see through the larger deception created by the media which shows predominately Mexicans as the "enemy". When all of America was tuned into CNN, MSNBC, the internet, and local news channels after 9/11was it only myself who happened to take notice that these hijackers had all entered into the US legally but most were out of status and the US had no idea where they were?

See in the US we have to always be "politically correct" or are at least supposed to. Well, I am one of those who finds that a bunch of BS and is used to try and have others control what they find uncomfortable to discuss. So here is the uncomfortable truth. We are a lazy country and so busy telling others how they should live while our own country goes down hill. The fact is that most of our youth are pathetically weak and treated with white gloves. Everyone here has so many "rights" that there can be no order kept for fear that someone will get sued or fired and their life will go down hill. The inner cities are out of control with the amount of vicious crimes being committed. Of course crimes happen everywhere but it is particularly high within the cities. People are allowed to sit on welfare and have as many children as they want while sucking valuable resources that were intended to help USC's get on their feet when necessary. Not intended to be a way of life. As an ICU RN the amount of people I see come in who have been shot, beaten, or overdosed on drugs/medicines is appauling. The worst part is that some of these people spend months in an ICU bed while we all foot the bill because most of them were too busy selling drugs or involved with illegal activity to work and have some form of health insurance. Now imagine an ICU bed alone is roughly $2300 a night and that is only for the room. Now start adding physicians, nursing, medications, soaps, etc etc. How much do you really think that we are spending on our own delinquent society. Do any of us just because we were born here truly have the right any more than someone who is not to abuse the system? I don't seem to think so. To say that there are long term effects on our country may very well be true. But, what are our long term effects on what I have just stated? What are the long term effects from having spoiled rotten children who can no longer even receive a spanking? Are we really all walking around with blinders on? It's like I have said many times before. You had better hope that we keep these illegals because when the going truly gets rough we are going to NEED these people who will stand up where our own spoiled American brats won't and fight to keep what we have here. They understand that life isn't "like a box of chocolates". And, most if given the opportunity to gain legal status would probably enlist in our military. We can't seem to get that from our own youth. They are too busy speeding up and down the street in the BMW or Mercedes that their parents bought them for the 16th birthday or selling drugs on the street corner. Your suburban youth are so tied up into cocaine and meth. It has infected all aspects of our society.

We can't sit here and all complain and point fingers at the illegals. They are truly doing the jobs that the Americans WON'T do. We are too busy thinking that we need the corner office with the nice view. Most Americans would be disgraced if they had to go out and pick strawberries for a living. They would be considered a failure.

And, about Mexico helping illegals cross the border or don't see problems with it well what do you think your own government did for 40 years? What do you think this is a new problem? They have known for years and years that they were coming across. Now we are so combined and the population has grown so fast how do you expect to continue to keep families separated. In the end Hispanic people are going to be the majority in this country. People don't forget. And, there is no way that the government can truly stop illegals here because that would just not be "politically correct". It's all a vicious circle and until we take care of our own broken system can we start to worry about illegals.

I for one think we should round up our youth and send them to camps so they can toughen up a little bit. They feel a tad bit of pressure and break. Killing their parents, gunning down their schools, abusing drugs/sex, etc. I say that if you have more than 2 children then you cannot get added benefits from the welfare program. You should have to be enrolled full time in some sort of a training program with decent grades to even receive the benefits unless there are of course other circumstances that need to be addressed. And those benefits only last for so many years. Unfortunately that will cause problems for many people but maybe they will toughen up a bit and quit waiting for someone to hand them everything. Peoples rights need to be toned down it has gotten way out of hand and now everyone thinks they have a right to whatever it is they feel at the moment. It truly is survival of the fittest and hate to say it but the Americans are in no way "fit". It's only time before it truly cracks and it will start within us.

[slubberry]

See in the US we have to always be "politically correct" or are at least supposed to. Well, I am one of those who finds that a bunch of BS and is used to try and have others control what they find uncomfortable to discuss. So here is the uncomfortable truth. We are a lazy country and so busy telling others how they should live while our own country goes down hill. The fact is that most of our youth are pathetically weak and treated with white gloves. Everyone here has so many "rights" that there can be no order kept for fear that someone will get sued or fired and their life will go down hill. The inner cities are out of control with the amount of vicious crimes being committed. Of course crimes happen everywhere but it is particularly high within the cities. People are allowed to sit on welfare and have as many children as they want while sucking valuable resources that were intended to help USC's get on their feet when necessary. Not intended to be a way of life. As an ICU RN the amount of people I see come in who have been shot, beaten, or overdosed on drugs/medicines is appauling. The worst part is that some of these people spend months in an ICU bed while we all foot the bill because most of them were too busy selling drugs or involved with illegal activity to work and have some form of health insurance. Now imagine an ICU bed alone is roughly $2300 a night and that is only for the room. Now start adding physicians, nursing, medications, soaps, etc etc. How much do you really think that we are spending on our own delinquent society. Do any of us just because we were born here truly have the right any more than someone who is not to abuse the system? I don't seem to think so. To say that there are long term effects on our country may very well be true. But, what are our long term effects on what I have just stated? What are the long term effects from having spoiled rotten children who can no longer even receive a spanking? Are we really all walking around with blinders on? It's like I have said many times before. You had better hope that we keep these illegals because when the going truly gets rough we are going to NEED these people who will stand up where our own spoiled American brats won't and fight to keep what we have here. They understand that life isn't "like a box of chocolates". And, most if given the opportunity to gain legal status would probably enlist in our military. We can't seem to get that from our own youth. They are too busy speeding up and down the street in the BMW or Mercedes that their parents bought them for the 16th birthday or selling drugs on the street corner. Your suburban youth are so tied up into cocaine and meth. It has infected all aspects of our society.


With all the problems that we have, why do we have to add to the burden by putting illegal immigrants to the list? And all the added expenses? And the added "rights?" The statements are more of a deflection than a response. I don't agree with the statement that "most would probably enlist in our military" on their own accord. Would probably be the same proportion as the "spoiled brats" do. Alot of illegal immigrants are just migrant workers that are trapped in this country due to the broken system. Many would return home if they thought there was no repercussions in returning for work.
The drug problems you listed are the same problems that are plaguing many youths in economically depressed areas not just the U.S.. Latin America has a huge problem with sniffing glue and drugs as well.

As for the speeding, what is the difference between "speeding up and down the street in the Mercedes and BMWs that their parents bought them" with driving without insurance and a valid license? According to AAA studies, a unlicensed driver is 16 times more likely to be involved in an accident than a licensed driver ( 18 times more likely to be fatal ). Compare that with less than 3 times driving 25 mph over the speed limit or 10 times driving 40 mph over the speed limit ( fatalities are about the same at 18times )? At least the "spoiled brat" 16 year old is insured the victims have some sort of recourse through insurance and their "wealthy" parents.

[Coventrated]

The Mexican government, like the U.S. government, turn a blind eye to illegal immigration because of money. Remittances to Mexico from illegal immigrants from Mexico account for the 2nd largest source of foreign income only after oil. The U.S. benefits from the cheaper labor of the illegal immigrants and it benefits the U.S. economy in the short term only. Here is an interesting article about some of the drains on the U.S. economy in the medium and long term ( keep in mind it was a study done by the CIS which opposes granting amnesty to illegals ):http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalcoverage.html.

Also keep in mind that there are other studies done by the Federal Reserve and the USCIS that also substantiate some of the claims of the article.

Most economic studies I've read seem to support the mentality that illegal immigrants depress the overall income but not all studies find that this is a bad thing. Some studies suggest that it helps keep inflation in check, other studies suggest that it gives the U.S. consumers more purchasing power, and others suggest that it helps us in the global economy. But all studies agree that it comes at a cost, either the long term or in human costs.

Mexico and the other Latin American countries are the target because that's the face that every day Americans see. Even during the "rallies" most were waiving flags of Latin American countries and chanting in Spanish. Most Americans and illegal immigrants view the word "bilingual" as English / Spanish. This is the face that the illegal immigration proponents have thrust onto the American public. Mind you, this is on a national level. If you go into local communities, there is a simillar mindset against Asian, Eastern Europeans, African, and Middle Eastern nationalities but again, in the national level, the faces thrust upon us by the media ( as well as the proponents ) have been mostly of Hispanic origin.

Probably varies a bit by State, but certainly this is how it is seen in Colorado.

I would reiterate that this vew is given from all sides of the political spectrum, to the extent that Immigrant implies both EWI and not being able to speak English. Annoying if neither apply to you.

All the Immigrant Rights activists I have heard locally are Spanish speaking.

[egonzalez1975]

That is the exact mentality that I was speaking of. I could care less if you are insured or not. The point that I was trying to make is that the REALITY is "illegals" are the least of our worries.

And, I don't agree with the military statement. I really think that if these illegals were allowed to join the military and serve at least 4 years that they would receive a permanent resident card I guarantee that most would. I think you are assuming because they are "just migrant workers" that they couldn't possibly be able to handle being part of the military. I am a little confused on your stand regarding immigration because it appears to me that you married someone with whom you needed help from immigration so you know how difficult it would be for someone to enter legally if not married to a USC.

In the end it doesn't matter what any of us say. It is just a bunch of opinions (and we know about those) in the end.

I think our country is all screwed up and as usual we are focused on others instead of ourselves. Because of course we are the wonderfully perfect AMERICANS who make no errors or do no wrong.


And whether you feel that my response was more of a deflection than a response you still have left many of my questions unanswered. I do no feel that it was a deflection rather a comment to make people open their eyes to all the other areas of society that are draining our system. Mexicans ARE NOT America's whole problem and nor do they make up a large percentage of the issues that are faced in this country. That is why I veered off and raised other issues because we alone do more damage to ourselves than anyone else can do to us. I think you missed my point about "spoiled brats". Who is going to defend this country when we have a bunch of sissies running around here? Do you really think we have a chance in 50 years? These other countries have youth who understand that life is hard and it takes sacrifice and hard work. They aren't afraid to get dirty and do what is necessary while our own youth whine and cry for everything.

As far as drugs: I am not so simple minded that I don't realize other countries also have this problem however, I wasn't referring to those countries. I was talking about our own. Again, I am not interested in what is happening everywhere else. It is what is happening here that has me concerned.

In the end whether illegals add onto our problems how do any of us even notice with all the crap we are doing to ourselves? Our country has enabled the American people to be lazy. Not everyone of course but a large chunk yes!!!!! Until we stop with this self-righteous attitude and get down to what's really going on then we will continue in this path. To think the first step to cleaning up our country is to stop illegal immigrants from entering is naive.

I know that my words have hit a brick wall and I am willing to say whatever to this whole topic. But, in 25 years I would love to look back at these posts and just see what all of us were fixated on.

I just wish well for everyone and hope that we each can find some kind of peace and of course something constructive to occupy our time other than sitting here trying to prove our points to another individual who has different life experiences and thoughts. I include myself in that comment. Now, I need to go and plant a garden or something!!!! :)

[slubberry]

And, I don't agree with the military statement. I really think that if these illegals were allowed to join the military and serve at least 4 years that they would receive a permanent resident card I guarantee that most would. I think you are assuming because they are "just migrant workers" that they couldn't possibly be able to handle being part of the military. I am a little confused on your stand regarding immigration because it appears to me that you married someone with whom you needed help from immigration so you know how difficult it would be for someone to enter legally if not married to a USC.

You can also talk to anyone wanting to come to the U.S. and offer the same deal and many would also take the offer. It is not about serving for the love of country but serving to gain entry. Out of the most that you claim would join the military, if you took the offer of the green card off the table, would pretty much be similar to the "spoiled brats" enlisting.

And whether you feel that my response was more of a deflection than a response you still have left many of my questions unanswered. I do no feel that it was a deflection rather a comment to make people open their eyes to all the other areas of society that are draining our system. Mexicans ARE NOT America's whole problem and nor do they make up a large percentage of the issues that are faced in this country. That is why I veered off and raised other issues because we alone do more damage to ourselves than anyone else can do to us. I think you missed my point about "spoiled brats". Who is going to defend this country when we have a bunch of sissies running around here? Do you really think we have a chance in 50 years? These other countries have youth who understand that life is hard and it takes sacrifice and hard work. They aren't afraid to get dirty and do what is necessary while our own youth whine and cry for everything.
I would rather have "some sissies" defend our country because they joined because they believed in the U.S.'s ideals rather than a bunch of "indentured servants" who serve because it is a way to get a green card. Imagine what the turnover rate in the military would be like if we offered such a deal!

As far as drugs: I am not so simple minded that I don't realize other countries also have this problem however, I wasn't referring to those countries. I was talking about our own. Again, I am not interested in what is happening everywhere else. It is what is happening here that has me concerned.

What happens when jobs become scarce for these people? They won't turn to the bottle or drugs in the same proportion as the general U.S. population? Are they of such better moral character than those of the U.S. general population?

In the end whether illegals add onto our problems how do any of us even notice with all the crap we are doing to ourselves? Our country has enabled the American people to be lazy. Not everyone of course but a large chunk yes!!!!! Until we stop with this self-righteous attitude and get down to what's really going on then we will continue in this path. To think the first step to cleaning up our country is to stop illegal immigrants from entering is naive.
So an AIDS patient doesn't have to take care of a cold because they have a more serious disease? Do they only worry about taking care of AIDS and not bother with treating the cold? Of course not. You also don't just treat the cold only, you treat both diseases. Just like the government hasn't stopped trying to fix our society's ills to take on illegal immigration and that is why the government cannot ignore the illegal immigration problem either.

[Laura]

You can also talk to anyone wanting to come to the U.S. and offer the same deal and many would also take the offer. It is not about serving for the love of country but serving to gain entry. Out of the most that you claim would join the military, if you took the offer of the green card off the table, would pretty much be similar to the "spoiled brats" enlisting.


I would rather have "some sissies" defend our country because they joined because they believed in the U.S.'s ideals rather than a bunch of "indentured servants" who serve because it is a way to get a green card. Imagine what the turnover rate in the military would be like if we offered such a deal!



Ummm... just a comment. Do you really think Americans join the military simply because they believe in the "ideals" of the U.S.? Some may, and that is great. But many do it because there are a lot of good benefits, or to get money for college, and others do it because they have been tricked into thinking that by going to Iraw they are getting revenge on the people who attacked us on 9-11.

I'm not trying to attack the military, I understand this is the Bush Administration's war, and was approved by our elected representatives, but let's leave set the high-minded rhetoric aside and save us all some nausea. Americans who decide to become soldiers have just as many complex reasons behind their decision as any intending immigrant would. They are weighing all the negatives of being in the military against all the benefits, and wanting to uphold the U.S.'s vague ideals of bringing freedom and democracy (although I would personally argue that we are doing exactly the opposite in Iraq) is just one small piece. But becoming a great soldier, like anything else, is going to have more to do with work ethic, training, loyalty to ones peers, obedience to authority, etc, than one's convictions.

[egonzalez1975]

Only think I need to say at this point is that your "endentured servant" comment was way out of line and completely offensive.

Many on this sight have relatives or spouses who would be considered to be in this group and to try and make your points by dehumanizing them is a complete turn off from anything you have to say and completely discredits you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Furthermore, I agree wholeheartedly with laurafern. No way in hell you will ever convince me that people join the military here for their "love" of this country. Again, some may but the majority are in need of the benefits or help with college tuition. If it were these "sissies" defending us then why aren't they the ones who are enlisting? It happens to be that inner city schools are targeted and heavily "scouted" if you will, because of the fact that these kids have few other options if they choose to get out of the lifestyle they are currently in.

And please try to refrain from "dancing" around my comments. Of course illegals have turned to drugs and what not when times have been tough. But, on the grand scale they continue to work and show up and do what is necessary to get their check. Say what you will it is only 1 opinion.

So it seems to me then that our government is "treating" the cold and NOT the AIDS!!!!! So, looking at the big picture I would rather treat the AIDS than the cold. Would you not agree? I mean if there was an option and only 1 thing was treated. I don't see them working on reform for lazy crackheads popping out baby after baby on welfare or gang-bangers shooting the hell out of each other and then sitting in our hospitals for months at a time while those of us working our arses off get to foot the bill. Or anything else that hard: Oh wait except for our wonderful war. WHATEVER!!!!!!

And, I thought that this board was pro-immigration!!! Are you lost??????

Back to gardening I go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No sense in continuing this any further it would just be appreciated if you don't intentionally or unintentionally be so offensive when you don't know who is reading this board.

[Coventrated]

I am going to upset everybody.

Joining the Military

I quite like the idea of a route to citizenship, France had the Foreign Legion, plenty of other historical examples, Rome - but look what happened to them.

It does seem to me that as Blacks are to Vietnam, Hispanics are to Iraq,

I know indirectly someone who joined to avoid a Felony, also a family member who rejoined as he had recently got married and the bonus allowed them to buy a house, both Iraq bound.

Drugs

I am told by people who should know that in Denver it used to be controlled by the Bikers and Black gangs, they have been overtaken by Mexican Cartels. Like a lot of this, a numbers issue.

Legal

I would refer posters to the terms and conditions that everybody agreed to, I have seen quite a few posts where people have skirted encouraging illegal behaviour.

[gdalicia]

I see the problem as extremely simple: any employer has had the ability for many years to call in social security numbers to check and see if they are valid. Why don't they? And why doesn't the government make it a law that they do? The answer is obvious...our economy depends on it. Now you can argue whether it *should* or shouldn't be that way, but the simple fact is that capitalism requires low-wage workers. We have always had to bring these workers in from other places. Anyone remember slavery?!? What the heck do you people think that was all about? And we have been a xenophobic country since our inception even though we are ironically a country of immigrants. Who built the railroads? Who worked in the factories at the turn of the century helping to drive the industrial revolution? No self respecting low-income American is ever going to be caught dead out in a field picking Strawberries. To suggest that it would ever happen is just ludricrous. They would rather collect a welfare check than have to do manual labor...wouldn't you?!?

The fact is my husband is more native to California than I am! I once worked at an Immigration Project that one of my co-workers renamed the "Re-population Project". I won't even get started on the destruction of the Native American population of this country. Anyone who thinks that this is a simple problem of people breaking the law need to read up on their history. We have been encouraging migration to our country from Mexico and other areas for decades. That's right "encouraging" and talking out of both sides of our mouths. It is pure hypocrisy to demonize illegal immigrants. If there weren't so many darn jobs for them when they get here they would never come!

[DaveH]

Im not familiar with what EWI means but I'll take it to mean something along the lines of not having any documentation. The story you told of your husbands reason for coming here are valid in so far as why he did it. But, to be honest it doesn't make it any less a crime. I know people will do what they feel they have to under various circumstances. I would have done the same more than likely. However, no one is above the law for any reason, period. In other words if you get caught doing something you know is wrong then you have to take what you got coming. What your story goes to show is Mexico's system is broken, not ours.

The reason why there is such a fixation on the hispanic illegal alien problem is simply because they are the biggest part of the illegal population. That is why they are targeted. The other part is the illegals from other countries are for the most part known. Meaning they came here initially on a visa and subsequently overstayed. In those cases we at least have some knowledge of who they are and their back ground. Its simply geography. Someone from Mexico can crawl under a fence and make a run for it. If your from Europe or Asia it isn't so easy.

Egonzales, your sister runs a sec 8 housing project. I don't agree with giving people who came here even if it is for political asylum, which is probably most of the ones there, a free ride. Why are there so many people from similar backgrounds in the same area? Much of that depends on location. People from various ethnicities will settle in close proximity to each other. For example, I have some apartment building in Texas. In one area almost every applicant is hispanic. In the other the tendancy is towards white. Here at my San Diego residence many of the people in the immediate area are Asian.

You also made some comments about 9/11 . The reason they weren't caught prior to is there are far too many illegals and not enough enforcement personal to go after them. They probably moved prior to the visa expiration and their location was unknown. That tidbit is directly from one of the people who go looking for illegals.

As far as the laziness comment. I don't think so. The production rate of the American worker surpases that of the rest of the world. Why do you think we are the richest? Why do you think we have such a big problem with illegals. If this country was so lazy and broken no one would want to come here. Before you say it, don't. It isnt because we're getting rich off the backs of illegals. They for the most part do cause more economic harm than good. I have some first hand dealings in that arena I can tell you about to substantiate the claim.

[gdalicia]

It isnt because we're getting rich off the backs of illegals. They for the most part do cause more economic harm than good. I have some first hand dealings in that arena I can tell you about to substantiate the claim.

Dave is this is true then please explain to me why we have allowed the problem to continue for so long? If illegal immigration did more harm than good then I believe we've had the ability to fix it for decades. It starts with employers...

[Laura]

Dave is this is true then please explain to me why we have allowed the problem to continue for so long? If illegal immigration did more harm than good then I believe we've had the ability to fix it for decades. It starts with employers...

Exactly, the U.S. is VERY powerful, and if this were a bad thing overall for our country/economy we would have been cracking down on employers for years. What gdalicia said is right, any employer can call social security and check numbers. I had to do it for a job I had once and it took less than 5 minutes! If the job market dried up, immigrants would eventually leave. But the powerful people know that that would be ruin to our economy, which has always depended on cheap labor.

I think the reason we are seeing increased number of raids and all this media about immigration recently is because with the marches and the increased profile of undocumented immigrants in the country in general, all of a sudden some Americans, such as those already prone to fear-mongering and hawkish ideas about national security, and those who tend towards racism and the idea that a white U.S. is "ideal," have become louder and more powerful. Non-Americans are the easiest scapegoat - and illegal immigrants are the perfect scapegoat -- mostly brown, poor, different and powerless.

I have said this before, but this "problem" would be solved by a streamlined immigration system and an immigrant-friendly guest worker program that would allow the opportunity for workers to adjust their status if they wanted in the future. The thing is, while few people have ever had an undocumented immigrant negatively impact their existence, there is this perception of job stealing, welfare-collecting foreigners... and while this national immigration debate should be about fixing our broken and ineffective system, it's turned into a demonization of undocumented workers, trying to blame our social ills on them, rather than putting the blame on ourselves.

Finally, this whole thing about laws and "illegal" is such a joke. Yes, we are a nation that has laws, which we need to keep order, but let's be honest, everyone breaks laws in one way or another, so making that the primary argument against migration is just simple-minded. My favorite is when the same ultra-Conservatives who do anything and everything to avoid paying the taxes legally mandated by the government rail against "illegal" immigration.

[Laura]

As far as the laziness comment. I don't think so. The production rate of the American worker surpases that of the rest of the world.

Can you back this up with some data or reputable net information? I seriously don't think this is true anymore. I would guess that China, if anyone, has surpassed our production rate.

We are rich because we have power, resources, and innovation due to IMMIGRANTS who have made this an excellent country.

[pen1137]

what is even legal or illegal anymore? you sure can't tell by the current administration.

btw, i would love to pick strawberries somewhere-they smell yummy!:)

[Coventrated]

Exactly, the U.S. is VERY powerful, and if this were a bad thing overall for our country/economy we would have been cracking down on employers for years.

Has been very powerful, probably peeked 20 or so years ago, the decline has been more marked in the last few years.

If the job market dried up, immigrants would eventually leave.

I am not intending to.

But the powerful people know that that would be ruin to our economy, which has always depended on cheap labor.

So I am cheap labor?, there is much cheaper labor available elswhere. The American Dream is not cheap labor.

I think the reason we are seeing increased number of raids and all this media about immigration recently is because with the marches and the increased profile of undocumented immigrants in the country in general, all of a sudden some Americans, such as those already prone to fear-mongering and hawkish ideas about national security, and those who tend towards racism and the idea that a white U.S. is "ideal," have become louder and more powerful. Non-Americans are the easiest scapegoat - and illegal immigrants are the perfect scapegoat -- mostly brown, poor, different and powerless.

The numbers of raids etc are negligible compared to the flow, tokenistic at best.

I have said this before, but this "problem" would be solved by a streamlined immigration system and an immigrant-friendly guest worker program that would allow the opportunity for workers to adjust their status if they wanted in the future.

I find the whole concept of Guest Workers immoral, akin to indentured labor, and even contentiously slavery.

I know of nowhere where it has worked.

And if they can adjust why not go straight to PR status?

The thing is, while few people have ever had an undocumented immigrant negatively impact their existence

The back of my truck was impacted! But probably on average no worse than any other group.

Finally, this whole thing about laws and "illegal" is such a joke. Yes, we are a nation that has laws, which we need to keep order, but let's be honest, everyone breaks laws in one way or another, so making that the primary argument against migration is just simple-minded. My favorite is when the same ultra-Conservatives who do anything and everything to avoid paying the taxes legally mandated by the government rail against "illegal" immigration

Tax avoidence is legal, tax evasion is not.

And no person is illegal anyway. I prefer the term "Undocumented American". - Sen H Reid.

[egonzalez1975]

Response to DaveH post:

"Im not familiar with what EWI means but I'll take it to mean something along the lines of not having any documentation. "

Okay, for someone who is so "passionate" about the fight against illegal immigrants I would think that you would know one of the simplest terms used in this discussion. Just to help you out a bit: EWI stands for Entered Without Inspection.

"The story you told of your husbands reason for coming here are valid in so far as why he did it. But, to be honest it doesn't make it any less a crime. I know people will do what they feel they have to under various circumstances. I would have done the same more than likely. However, no one is above the law for any reason, period. In other words if you get caught doing something you know is wrong then you have to take what you got coming. What your story goes to show is Mexico's system is broken, not ours. "

So, again I am a little confused. First let me say that absolutely what my husband did was illegal and on some levels wrong if you would like. But, I would like to point out that entering on a visa or whatever and then going out of status is still being in the US "illegally". So are you saying that one type of illegal is worse than the other? Because in the end those who have entered legally and then go out of status absolutely without a doubt are clear on what is necessary to stay in this country and should be more than greatful for that opportunity and have either chosen or are too lazy to take care of that situation. Actually many go out of status and then marry for convenience to stay. Furthermore, what option would my husband have had because there is no way for him as a Mexican man to enter this country the right way!!!!!

And, by the way it is "illegal" in Florida to skateboard without a license, in Alabama dominoes may not be played on Sunday, in Texas it is illegal to milk another person's cow. So, I guess there are some laws that are being overlooked. (this one is for you Laurafern LOL)

"The reason why there is such a fixation on the hispanic illegal alien problem is simply because they are the biggest part of the illegal population. That is why they are targeted. The other part is the illegals from other countries are for the most part known. Meaning they came here initially on a visa and subsequently overstayed. In those cases we at least have some knowledge of who they are and their back ground. Its simply geography. Someone from Mexico can crawl under a fence and make a run for it. If your from Europe or Asia it isn't so easy. "

I agree with part of this about Mexicans being able to crawl under a fence. However, all of the hijackers from 9/11 were out of status or still carrying their permanent resident card which just proves that it doesn't matter if you know who they are or their background it doesn't guarantee you anything. And, I don't see many illegals in flight school or coming up with schemes on how to kill you and I. Let's get real about this!!!!! Enough with the whole drama on how we don't know what is coming across. Well, you don't know what you already have here either and that is even scarier because a lot of these people are fanatics.

"Egonzales, your sister runs a sec 8 housing project. I don't agree with giving people who came here even if it is for political asylum, which is probably most of the ones there, a free ride. Why are there so many people from similar backgrounds in the same area? Much of that depends on location. People from various ethnicities will settle in close proximity to each other. For example, I have some apartment building in Texas. In one area almost every applicant is hispanic. In the other the tendancy is towards white. Here at my San Diego residence many of the people in the immediate area are Asian. "

It didn't make any difference to me where they were from but the point was that they were getting a whole lot of benefits from the government. If you are able to come here in the first place then you should be able to work and support yourself. If they were home in their country they would figure it out and not have any government handing them a check. People entering illegally are able to pay their rent without gov't assistance but those who have a greencard in hand are somehow "owed" something. Not all, let me make that clear. . .but many many many!!!!!
" You also made some comments about 9/11 . The reason they weren't caught prior to is there are far too many illegals and not enough enforcement personal to go after them. They probably moved prior to the visa expiration and their location was unknown. That tidbit is directly from one of the people who go looking for illegals. "

So, basically because the gov't was trying to deal with all the millions and millions of illegals who are Mexican they didn't have time to try and figure out where these guys were even after they were tipped off about an impending attack on the US? ????? If I recall and someone may go ahead and correct me. . .it wasn't really until AFTER 9/11 that the heat really got turned up on the illegals from Mexico because we were all sooooooo very afraid that the middle easterners were going to blend in and get across with the Mexicans and blow us up again. So, we needed to deal with this. Forget that our gov't let us down and didn't follow through on a legit warning of what was coming. Or that the focus was turned almost immediately from the gov't inability to keep track of those who came in legally. Hey, I got it, let's just jump on this and point the media in this direction because the stupid Americans will take the bait and then it will be all the Mexicans fault for everything. Please give me a break!!!!!! Our gov't has manipulated the media and uses it to control the thoughts of Americans. And, we just sit and swallow it all up.

"As far as the laziness comment. I don't think so. The production rate of the American worker surpases that of the rest of the world. Why do you think we are the richest? Why do you think we have such a big problem with illegals. If this country was so lazy and broken no one would want to come here. Before you say it, don't. It isnt because we're getting rich off the backs of illegals. They for the most part do cause more economic harm than good. I have some first hand dealings in that arena I can tell you about to substantiate the claim. "

Are you kidding me????????????????? Where do you live? In the US????? And, you really said that. I don't even think that I need to respond to that one. I just feel so sorry for you. Just please refer to Lauraferns comment about this. I just can't bring myself to go into this. I am astonished by your lack of common sense with this statement. WOW!!!!!!

[DaveH]

The EWI acronym may be common here but its the first Ive seen it. Have only been on this site a few days now. I do agree if a person enters with or without papers and is subsequently illegal at some point its the same law being broken. The difference being with the ones who at some point were legal we have some knowledge of their back ground. It may not be perfect but its better than nothing at all. Even still, one person violating the law doesn't mitigate someone else doing it. Yes there are a lot of silly laws on the books that are obviously outdated. To compare that with immigration is apples and nuts.


Oh, illegals can still get into a plane at a flight school. Perhaps the intent of most of the illegals is not so dramatically evil. None the less I don't like taking the gamble. It may be true that a Mexican male has little chance to come across legally. But who's fault is that? Who's fault is it that a person didn't have opportunities in their own country?

You really really don't know why the Gov is giving special favours to people from select countries like Iraq?

The number of warnings the Gov gets on a daily basis about this threat or that threat would overwhelm all law inforcement & military combined if they were all investigated. The gov did not intentially drop the ball. I still believe our Gov does the best job it can in protecting the citizens of this country. Since they are people like you & me they make mistakes. I would be willing to bet they have thwarted many further attempts since then. Most of which we have no idea of.

Lazines. I live here, in California to be more precise. I own a business here and have several employees. If our employee work force were so terrible our country would have folded already. This is the best place to be bar none. I can testify personally to the inability of illegal workers. I have apartments in Texas. A year or so back I hired a contractor to rebuild some of the bathrooms. The contractor had illegals working for them. A month or so later the ceilings caved in on the bathrooms on the lower floor due to the slipshot work they did. Once I got a USC contractor, (verified it) the problem was fixed. I also learned of the huge problem unlicensed, illegal alien contractors are causing in the building profession. Some of the bigger home builders like KB have lost large class action lawsuits against them because of that. You can look it up. This happened in San Antonio.

You really don't think the Gov controls the media do you? This isn't China, the media is a business like any other. They put out what they think will get attention. Big brother has not taken over yet. If that were the case could we come here and freely throw out our thoughts without fear of a visit from the guys in the dark suits late at night?

laurafern do you think that immigrants are the sole cause of our current greatness? So by that your saying anyone born her is a lazy slug incapable of producing? Ok, that was a bit of an exageration. But you know where I am going. Were you born here? Is the illegal down the street more productive than you? C'mon, give yourself a little more credit than that.

[Adriane]

Well, actually, most of the 'illegals' I know work much harder than I do. Not that I don't work hard- but these people have a drive that is amazing...

I live in Ciudad Juarez now, on the border. The suggestion that the Mexican government isn't doing anything to prevent people from crossing. There is an entire government agency, Grupos Beta, who's sole mission is to talk people out of crossing. They patrol the border in trucks, trying to stop would-be immigrants and talk them out of crossing. They have public service announcements EVERYWHERE and warnign posters in bus stations & airports. They can't legally prohibit their citizens from leaving- it's not Cuba- and yes, they do, when all else fails, give them water and some supplies. but that's to preserve human life. Remember, these people are almost always someone's father or mother. In some cases Grupos Beta gives them beacons they can push if they get desperate- so the US Border Patrol can come & find them. It's to save lives.

Sure it's regretable that so many people feel like they need to leave their country in search of a better life. But given their situation, they do- and I understand. I think alot of systems are broken- ours, Mexico's, and a few more.

[Laura]

laurafern do you think that immigrants are the sole cause of our current greatness? So by that your saying anyone born her is a lazy slug incapable of producing? Ok, that was a bit of an exageration. But you know where I am going. Were you born here? Is the illegal down the street more productive than you? C'mon, give yourself a little more credit than that.

Well, unless you are descended from Native Americans, you and I are just second or third or fourth generation immigrants. So yes, I stand by that statement. I think immigration to this country (which founded it, mind you) is the cause of our current "greatness," though I wouldn't use that term. This is a good place to live, but we could be a lot greater if we were less arrogant and power-hungry.

I think many of the undocumented immigrants I know are more productive than me, definitely. It may be in different ways, but yes, many are.

Cov -- In response to your post that responded to my post: I don't think most Mexican undocumented immigrants actually want to live here permanently. Most are saving money to return to their homes, build a nice house and a small business to live out the rest of their days. In my opinion this is good for the U.S., who needs the workers, and for Mexico, which benefits from the money and the businesses that are eventually opened from it. This has changed with the militarization of the border. It's harder to cross, and more expensive, so where 20 years ago Mexican laborers might have migrated as the seasons changed, going back and forth between work and their families, our "border control" has only resulted in the permanence of many such immigrants in this country. I see this in my own family. They long to be back and Mexico, but know there is no hope there without a big chunk of change, and until that is attained, they are stuck.

And I understand all the hesitation about guest worker programs, but what we have now is essentially an underground guest worker program. Various gov't agencies are complicit by non-compliance with existing employment verification procedures, the IRS lets undocumented workers file tax returns, social security happily keeps all the money that immigrants using false socials are putting into the system. Why not make it legal? I think those who want to apply to be PRs should have that chance, but many don't want to go through that process. They want to work where they can make better money that they can invest in their home communities. And personally, I don't have a problem with that, in fact, I think it's great. There's no turning back from globalization, and the migration of labor globally is not going to stop because the U.S. builds some ridiculous draconian fence.

Also, I was on my way out of work and typing rather recklessly before. I'm sorry I offended you. Seriously, that's not my intention, despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with you on a variety of fronts. The fact is, the majority of undocumented workers who enter this country just come to work. And we have work for them to do. These people are my friends, my neighbors, my friends and one is my lover. I consider them with the highest regard, and I do not believe there should be any restriction on them working their way towards the highest levels of our American society. I don't know anything about your personal situation, and I did not mean to imply that I think immigrants are here just to do our hard labor. I have seen many achieve wages and promotions that would never have been fathomable in Mexico, and I applaud that, I love it.

[egonzalez1975]

I think this whole conversation is apples and nuts.

And, again I think you have misunderstood the comment that laurafern made. She was stating that this country was built on the hard work of immigrants namely your ancestors. DO YOU GET IT NOW?????

And all my illegal friends are lined up at for the next semester of flight school!!!!! Give me a freggin' break!!!

And the gov't has their hand all in the media. It's obvious that they can't control it as blatantly as other countries because that would be unconstitutional but if you are so naive as to think that certain people have received the jobs that they have for no other reason than they are good journalists than you have spent too much time trying to repair your tore up bathrooms the illegals didn't fix. There is so much bribery and power pulls going on and if we all knew the truth we would surely be shocked. There is a big brother and you even said about all the attacks that have been thwarted that we probably don't know about. Well, there is a whole lot in the gov't that we don't know about!!!!! They control EVERYTHING!!!!

We are not some weak little country with our fingers in our nose crying because we just can't seem to figure out how to patch those holes at the border the illegals keep crawling under. Are you truly telling me that they can't possibly get that stopped? For God's sake we have the most sophisticated military, can perform transplants on all organs, cure cancer, etc etc. but we just can't seem to stop the illegals from coming in. How about maybe the gov't is allowing this to happen. Oh no they would never do that now would they???????

Again, you obviously have blinders on if you don't see the absolute laziness in this country. No way in hell would I work 2-3 jobs at a fast food restaurant to try and make ends meet!!!!! I wouldn't do those jobs. That's the truth. It isn't "glamorous" enough. I didn't want that "stigma" so I went to school and got a college educatioin. I don't have a problem admitting that. I am a product of my country am I not? Maybe where you live everyone is super productive and works like a horse but that is some wonderful little town you live in. I have lived in several states and I see the same thing across the board. You have your hard workers but the rest of the population is just scratching by or living off the gov't or are relatives of the hard workers living off of them.

Sometimes it hurts when we realize that we don't have it ALL. That we aren't the perfect US of A that we all scream about. I am thankful to be born here and am greatful for my opportunities but it does not mean that my world is somehow perfect and that this country doesn't have issues. To act like everything here is hunky dory (maybe misspelled) and our issue is this horrible group of illegals ducking under fences and making a run for our great land is in the least a little DEE DEE DEE (thanks Mencia)!!!!!!!!!

There is too much explaining that is necessary to try and have this conversation so as far as I am concerned you are just bored since there is no fixing left in your business after the Americans came and fixed it the right way. Oh and by the way, my sisters roof, which was put on by illegals (I assume since they were all hispanic and speaking only spanish) hasn't leaked not once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TA TA!!!!!:wave:

[DaveH]

The Gov. controls everything ? Oh, c'mon. The media is manipulated by the government at times with disinformation when its an issue of say national security. During the gulf wars I and II. Do you think the media had complete free reign to go where ever they wanted to and report everything, no they did not. It wasn't so much to hide something that would shock the conscience of the world. No, it would have been to protect soldiers lives. There are no secret societies or things of hollywood. The comment about the unknown thwarted attacks. The reason we are not told about most of them is because it would shake peoples confidence in their society if they knew to the extent of what was going on. If that happens the rest is academic.

One point you did get semi correct. Most are living off the work of others, kinda. Its the 80/20 rule. 20% own 80%. They are the innovators, producers, what ever you want to call them. Usually they are thought of as the heartless owners unless its payday.

I take it your not a pilot. It isnt that difficult to get in the pilots seat, illegal or not.

If you think the workers here are bad, go take a look at other countries. Ive been to several in South America, The far east etc. We do have the best here. Maybe I am patriotic, but here is an example. A couple years ago I looked at hiring an outside call center to do evening customer service. I got proposals from several outfits. Granted, the cost of using the ones based in India or wherever would have been less but I chose to employ people here. I think we should hire our own first. I would rather pay a licensed contractor twice what I would pay an illegal one. What about the USC's family? Should they be denied work because an illegal who has no vested interest, no standards to uphold, can underbid him.

What if an illegal could underbid your employer for your job and they took it at half the wage. Would you still sing the same tune? Even if it meant having to work that dreaded 2nd job? Its so easy to sing the praises of the illegal worker until they take your job or cause your kids to have to go without.

Of course our country is not perfect. 'In order to form a more perfect union...' It didn't say a perfect one. They knew then we are human and subject to flaws. But, its the best one out there. We should celebrate that instead of digging for flaws and blaming big brother who doesn't even exist.
A little arrogance and hunger is what drives the free market system. It is necessary and justified. We should be very proud of what we have and guard it jealously.

[Chula]

It is obvious that someone needs to go away shoo..shoo...go away your intentions were not good as you say you just found this board a few days ago what were your intentions??? You don't need our help just go away already!!!!

[slubberry]

Ummm... just a comment. Do you really think Americans join the military simply because they believe in the "ideals" of the U.S.? Some may, and that is great. But many do it because there are a lot of good benefits, or to get money for college, and others do it because they have been tricked into thinking that by going to Iraw they are getting revenge on the people who attacked us on 9-11.


The U.S. military has one of the highest retention rates in the world ( not including those countries that require military service ). If it was a means to an ends, the retention rates would not be that high. And as for the revenge part, may be warped, but still a nationalistic love of country.

Also, if we did do a "foreign legion" type of thing, history shows that it had a very very high desertion rate.

We are not some weak little country with our fingers in our nose crying because we just can't seem to figure out how to patch those holes at the border the illegals keep crawling under. Are you truly telling me that they can't possibly get that stopped? For God's sake we have the most sophisticated military, can perform transplants on all organs, cure cancer, etc etc. but we just can't seem to stop the illegals from coming in. How about maybe the gov't is allowing this to happen. Oh no they would never do that now would they???????

No we can't stop it from happening, we can only reduce it. That's what the immigration reform is about: what to do with the illegal aliens and how do we prevent it from happening again in such numbers?

Again, you obviously have blinders on if you don't see the absolute laziness in this country. No way in hell would I work 2-3 jobs at a fast food restaurant to try and make ends meet!!!!! I wouldn't do those jobs. That's the truth. It isn't "glamorous" enough. I didn't want that "stigma" so I went to school and got a college educatioin. I don't have a problem admitting that. I am a product of my country am I not? Maybe where you live everyone is super productive and works like a horse but that is some wonderful little town you live in. I have lived in several states and I see the same thing across the board. You have your hard workers but the rest of the population is just scratching by or living off the gov't or are relatives of the hard workers living off of them.


So you would rather live on the pitiance that welfare provides rather than supporting yourself and your family by working because it isn't "glamourous" enough? This is the first time I've heard anyone even remotely suggest that being on welfare is glamourous.

Oh and by the way, my sisters roof, which was put on by illegals (I assume since they were all hispanic and speaking only spanish) hasn't leaked not once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow! I can't believe you just made that statement. I guess you were "brainwashed" by the all powerful, Big Brother government and their puppet media. Dr Joseph Goebbels would be proud!

[egonzalez1975]

Well between the 2 of you I think there might be half a brain since most of what I said was taken out of context and you don't seem to really get the point of it anyway.

Slubberry:

If our country TRULY wanted the flow of illegals entering this country to stop you had better believe it would be stopped!!!! Don't act like we are so powerless that we can't seem to do that!!! It's just an excuse.

And, living on welfare!!! PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION: HELL NO I WOULDN'T LIVE ON WELFARE!!!! But, I sure as hell wouldn't work 2-3 jobs at fast food to make ends meet either like illegals would. I would do exactly what I did first and that was go and get a college education. I raised 2 children for several years on my own without the use of welfare. I had my first child when I was 17 and I have NEVER received 1 dime of welfare benefits except for medicaid for 8 months when my daughter was around a year old. And, I NEVER even used it except for her shots 1 time. And, I worked as a waitress. Now would I do that for a living? NO NO NO NO NO So don't take what I say and manipulate it for your own argument. Pay attention!!!

Your last statement doesn't even make sense. The roof was put on by illegals and it doesn't leak unlike the shotty job that DaveH had done in his business by illegals. I'm sorry but what was your point????????????? Ran out of crap to say????????????? And to even say anything re: Dr. Joseph Goebbels is not even in line with what is being said. Just a desperate attempt to look well educated is all!!!!!!!

DaveH

Our poor gov't they are so manipulated by that big old bad media!!!!! Comical to say the least. And, I agree that the gov't has thwarted attacks that we don't even know about. That's a given. But, to think that our gov't just really doesn't have any control or know what is going on is a laugh. You are like one of those fathers who has the daughter who is selling her body and shooting heroin but still tells the neighbors how innocent and what a good girl she is!!!!!! DENIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, as far as my pilot comment it wasn't about the level of difficulty in getting in that I was referring to!!!! DUH!!! It was about the fact that there aren't these lines of illegals trying to get in so that they can fly into our structures and then create a war like we have in Iraq right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it is great to hire American workers. I am all for that. However, the majority of American workers are LAZY. They are slow and complain about everything including working conditions constantly. American workers spend so much time complaining about what they have to do and how they don't like to do it blah, blah, blah. Now, if you have never heard that then you need to connect with reality again. And, I think that maybe you spend 95% of your time next to white people because the truth is they are not as vocal about how unhappy they are in their job as, let's say, African Americans. And, yes there is a difference. I have worked at a hospital in the inner city for the past 5.5 years. It is a HUGE difference.

And, let me make this clear 1 more time. I am proud to be an American but not so naive that I look the other way at some very large flaws that we have. That is why the REST of the world is getting to the point that they hate America/American's. Look that up!!! It's because we are self-righteous and believe we have the right to get involved in what everybody else is doing instead of cleaning up what others not even in this country can see clearly. It is all about us being blinded because we couldn't possibly be patriotic and say that the US is in big trouble right now. That just wouldn't be kosher!!!!!

[To1436]

It is obvious that someone needs to go away shoo..shoo...go away your intentions were not good as you say you just found this board a few days ago what were your intentions??? You don't need our help just go away already!!!!

Chula i dont think that we should be telling anyone to go away. Hearing the other side is hard but I think that we have to be opened minded. We can agree or disagree but getting mad and defensive does not help the situation.

[Chula]

I am not defensive listen to his statments, he obviously does not have anything but NEGATIVITY to contribute to this board he is not even going through process anymore was my main reason for askng him to go away we don't need all this unecessary drama in our lives. I guess what I am trying to "express" why come to a pro-immigrant board to just add to the already stressed life we have dealing with seperation. I guess it makes one feel superior becasue they are already done and can do that if it makes you feel that way then all the power to you I guess.

[latinsoulmate]

Well, Chula, he's certainly done what he set out to do...cause dissention.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion. This argument can go on until the cows come home and no one will be won over either way. I personally find it nonproductive to continue. Besides, this has been done several times in the past on this site.

:wink: Cov & Slu, I know how you two love a good debate, but it is rather upsetting when there is no end in site.

Let's focus on why this site is here.
The provision of information and support to all who are going through the immigration process.
We're not here to judge one another.

[To1436]

yes i agree. If you want him to stop just dont relply back. To every argument there are two sides and if we keep on going at it it wont stop. If there is too much drama in your life, then just dont deal with this post. Its not worth you getting upset about. There are so many positive posts that will help all of us along the way. This is just one of the many people that will go on this forum that will try to post their point of view.

it just never ends!! =]

[arcoiris]

No sense in wrestling in the mud with a pig. You just get muddy, and the pig likes it.

[Chula]

Well, Chula, he's certainly done what he set out to do...cause dissention.

Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion. This argument can go on until the cows come home and no one will be won over either way. I personally find it nonproductive to continue. Besides, this has been done several times in the past on this site.

:wink: Cov & Slu, I know how you two love a good debate, but it is rather upsetting when there is no end in site.

Let's focus on why this site is here.
The provision of information and support to all who are going through the immigration process.
We're not here to judge one another.

Thank you latin! :wave:

[Chula]

No sense in wrestling in the mud with a pig. You just get muddy, and the pig likes it.

Umm yea you hit the nail on the head :bounce:

[Chula]

yes i agree. If you want him to stop just dont relply back. To every argument there are two sides and if we keep on going at it it wont stop. If there is too much drama in your life, then just dont deal with this post. Its not worth you getting upset about. There are so many positive posts that will help all of us along the way. This is just one of the many people that will go on this forum that will try to post their point of view.

it just never ends!! =]

Umm yea thanks for your advice.

[gdalicia]

Still waiting for someone to explain why every employer isn't required to call in social security numbers. I noticed that no one has taken a stab at that one yet....

[ujcdv]

So Dave, a question..

Your talking points are alot like those who are against immigration. Against what most people who come to this site looking for help with. You said you have immigration issues, and that you used to be married with a person from ...Mexico I think? People who come here want to be with their spouses and want them back because of the immigration problems they have run into.

So what's your story?

[Coventrated]

Cov -- In response to your post that responded to my post: I don't think most Mexican undocumented immigrants actually want to live here permanently. Most are saving money to return to their homes, build a nice house and a small business to live out the rest of their days. In my opinion this is good for the U.S., who needs the workers, and for Mexico, which benefits from the money and the businesses that are eventually opened from it.

Mexicans account for less than half the numbers. I have met people in Mexico who have done as you say. I have a friend who would like to go back to DF, but his children were born and brought up in the US, and he just can not see them re-locating. Plus his wife who is not Mexican does not want to go anyway.

This has changed with the militarization of the border. It's harder to cross, and more expensive, so where 20 years ago Mexican laborers might have migrated as the seasons changed, going back and forth between work and their families, our "border control" has only resulted in the permanence of many such immigrants in this country. I see this in my own family. They long to be back and Mexico, but know there is no hope there without a big chunk of change, and until that is attained, they are stuck.

I am sure that is also the case for some, but as I have said Mexicans are a minority and these are a minority of a minority. Plus 20 years ago the numbers were much much smaller, it is a numbers game. The numbers drive the issue.

And I understand all the hesitation about guest worker programs, but what we have now is essentially an underground guest worker program.

Agreed

Various gov't agencies are complicit by non-compliance with existing employment verification procedures, the IRS lets undocumented workers file tax returns, social security happily keeps all the money that immigrants using false socials are putting into the system. Why not make it legal?

The IRS insist on Prostitutes and Drug Runners paying taxes, Al Capone's big mistake was not paying taxes.

I think those who want to apply to be PRs should have that chance, but many don't want to go through that process. They want to work where they can make better money that they can invest in their home communities. And personally, I don't have a problem with that, in fact, I think it's great. There's no turning back from globalization, and the migration of labor globally is not going to stop because the U.S. builds some ridiculous draconian fence.

I have always thought a fence was a minor aspect. Freedom of employment requires a Green Card. The GC process seems only more painful than a work visa in the time it takes. I have not looked at the fees, my guess is that there is not a lot in it.

Also, I was on my way out of work and typing rather recklessly before. I'm sorry I offended you.

You did not.

Seriously, that's not my intention, despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with you on a variety of fronts. The fact is, the majority of undocumented workers who enter this country just come to work. And we have work for them to do. These people are my friends, my neighbors, my friends and one is my lover. I consider them with the highest regard, and I do not believe there should be any restriction on them working their way towards the highest levels of our American society. I don't know anything about your personal situation, and I did not mean to imply that I think immigrants are here just to do our hard labor. I have seen many achieve wages and promotions that would never have been fathomable in Mexico, and I applaud that, I love it.

I have quite a few friends whose status is unclear, I can see from posts on this board that many people respond to the issue emotionally. If the US Immigration system was not such a total pain personally, I would not have become so interested.

There seem a few people who favor open borders and those who support no immigration at all, both in my view extreme positions.

So we are left with some form of limited immigration,

I take as a given close family members, spouses, fiancés, minor children.

Otherwise it becomes a matter of opinion, as a non American is seems reasonable to me that any numbers in addition should be allocated on the basis of benefit to America, and that of course where it gets tricky.

So first decide how many,then decide which categories, and then how many each category should get.

Partly economic mainly political.

[egonzalez1975]

I agree totally with what everyone said about not responding.

And, I love the whole wrestling in the mud with the pig but sometimes it can be a little fun too!!!!! :D

I don't find this personally stressful but rather comical. I agree with Chula however that this board is PRO immigration and the name of this site is IMMIGRATE2US and it isn't DONOTIMMIGRATE2US!!!

It is a fact that this argument will never come to a close and no one will change the others point of view.

And, gdalicia I hope that someone will finally answer that for you. Maybe there wasn't anyone in the Nazi regime to reference. :dunno: LMFAO (Dr. Joseph Goebbels:rolleyes:)

[gdalicia]

Of course it's totally obvious why no one is answering it. It's so freakin simple that that once anyone REALLY thinks about it there's no way for them to argue that our government hasn't allowed illegal immigration to continue. Sure, we talk tough and we put some drug sniffing dogs down on the border one in a while. But let's get our facts straight, shall we? If this country wanted illegal immigration to end it could tomorrow...starting with employer enforcement. Enough with the hypocrisy. Scapegoating illegal immigrants is pathetic and does nothing to address some of the real problems that our country is currently facing. It's a great distraction though, isn't it??

[gdalicia]

And you're not the only one who didn't get the Goebbels reference, Ellie. But we can always count on Slubberry to contribute something totally random. :rolleyes:

Illegal aliens taking flying lessons? The only flying lessons those guys are taking is how to fly the pesticide chopper on the farm!!! Someone needs a serious reality check.

[Laura]

Mexicans account for less than half the numbers. I have met people in Mexico who have done as you say. I have a friend who would like to go back to DF, but his children were born and brought up in the US, and he just can not see them re-locating. Plus his wife wo is not Mexican does not want to go anyway.

I am sure that is also the case for some, but as I have said Mexicans ar a minority and these are a minority of a minority.


I don't think Mexicans account for less than half the undocumented population, and if you lump Mexicans and other Central Americans together you definitely have a majority. Here is one example of some statistics (http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html) that say 57% are Mexican, 23% are from other Central American nations.

Now, please realize that when I mention the guest worker stuff, I am not talking about immigrants in general. This discussion started because one person was singling out undocumented ie. "illegal" immigrants for causing all sorts of problems in this country. And I'm also not saying ALL MEXICANS would prefer to live permanently in Mexico, but the majority I have talked to (and we're talking at least a hundred people, probably closer to 200 that I have interacted with over the past few years, mostly through work and family acquaintances) would prefer the opportunity to work in the U.S. and take their funds back to Mexico. This topic fascinates me, so I ask everyone about it. I'm not saying it's a scientific survey, but it's not like I talked to one friend who said he missed Mexico, this is a lot of people.

Finally, I'm not sure why you would not expect people to react emotionally. We are talking about families here, and we are talking about human lives. It's an emotional issue. Why does that have to be negative?

[Laura]

Still waiting for someone to explain why every employer isn't required to call in social security numbers. I noticed that no one has taken a stab at that one yet....

Hehe. It's so simple it's ridiculous. A HUGE double-standard. It's a lot easier to blame the "alienz" than blame the U.S. employers that keep our economy and rich lifestyle going and going and going...

[egonzalez1975]

I think the worst part of this whole thread was when illegal Mexicans were likened to "endentured servants".

It kind of funny that the 9/11 terrorists came from good families, no criminal history, and here legally (well until they went out of status and our gov't lost their location).

I don't know but I am in more fear of the educated visa holder than those poor littled "endured servants".

Just like the recent attacks in London. There was a gentleman who had met with high ranking Al Qaida "officials" a couple of years ago and was told told by one that "those who heal you will be those that kill you" as a direct threat to the US and UK. Well, 6 out of 8 who were involved in these recent attacks were well educated physicians. Well, let me tell you that the US is not pumping out Mexican Dr's. They are saturated with students from the middle east. The truth is that I am not in fear of eating the strawberries that the illegals have picked I am more concerned by passing a carload of middle eastern men riding in a Mercedes on the highway who all entered on visas.

I am tired of seeing Mexicans made to look like they are the problem in the US. It is an ignorant argument. No one cared about the illegals being here until the US was attacked and then they couldn't look like they dropped the ball in not knowing where these men were since they were out of status. So, let's go ahead and turn the table on the illegals entering the country and how the middle easterners will seep through the boarder and blend in with the illegals. Funny thing is that they are all coming across CANADA!!!! Where is the outcry for more security at the Canadian border?

The whole thing about losing jobs is just a deflection of what the real issue initially was!!!!! It was a way that Americans got stirred up and angered. What is the difference if they enter and take the jobs or if we outsource them? So, our jobs going to foreigners is okay as long as it is done "legally". How many call centers have been shut down and those jobs sent to India? What about the American citizens who worked in those facilities? Many of whom stayed off of disability because they did not have to lift or be on their feet for several hours a day. Now what are they left to do? Oh but since it was a "legal" giving away of our jobs then that's just fine!!!!

AND COULD ONE OF YOU PLEASE ANSWER GDALICIA'S QUESTION!!!!! Thanks, that would be great.

It's like my "endentured servant" husband says: "People speak just because they have a mouth." Pretty smart for being so uneducated huh??????

[gdalicia]

I think Chula shooo shoooo'd em away. :wink:

[Coventrated]

I don't think Mexicans account for less than half the undocumented population, and if you lump Mexicans and other Central Americans together you definitely have a majority. Here is one example of some statistics (http://www.urban.org/publications/1000587.html) that say 57% are Mexican, 23% are from other Central American nations.

I seem to remember 43% from Mexico, the difference could well be that the numbers I looked at included those who had entered with inspection.

Now, please realize that when I mention the guest worker stuff, I am not talking about immigrants in general. This discussion started because one person was singling out undocumented ie. "illegal" immigrants for causing all sorts of problems in this country. And I'm also not saying ALL MEXICANS would prefer to live permanently in Mexico, but the majority I have talked to (and we're talking at least a hundred people, probably closer to 200 that I have interacted with over the past few years, mostly through work and family acquaintances) would prefer the opportunity to work in the U.S. and take their funds back to Mexico. This topic fascinates me, so I ask everyone about it. I'm not saying it's a scientific survey, but it's not like I talked to one friend who said he missed Mexico, this is a lot of people.

Funy thing is hat I know quite a few Americans who have or are contemplating retirement to Mexico/Costa Rica etc. Is that their intention? What about leaving families and friends?

Probably quite a few non Mexicans etc who would like to have the same oportunity, could any legal scheme discriminate against Africans for example in being given the same opportunity?

I am trying to remember a study I read, Honduras?, the majority of the population would up and move to the US given the chance. Mexico is of course much better of economically than many other countries in the region.

Finally, I'm not sure why you would not expect people to react emotionally. We are talking about families here, and we are talking about human lives. It's an emotional issue. Why does that have to be negative?

Because some then post comments that make no logical sense, unenforcable, impractical etc etc.

[Coventrated]

I think the worst part of this whole thread was when illegal Mexicans were likened to "endentured servants".

Not me, I called a Guest Worker scheme equivalent to indentured servant, just found out that the American term is Bonded Laborer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

Seems a good description.

Well, let me tell you that the US is not pumping out Mexican Dr's. They are saturated with students from the middle east. The truth is that I am not in fear of eating the strawberries that the illegals have picked I am more concerned by passing a carload of middle eastern men riding in a Mercedes on the highway who all entered on visas.

There are many people on this board who have spouses going through the middle east.

So its OK to racially profile the Middle East, a little bit hypocritical?

I am tired of seeing Mexicans made to look like they are the problem in the US. It is an ignorant argument. No one cared about the illegals being here until the US was attacked and then they couldn't look like they dropped the ball in not knowing where these men were since they were out of status. So, let's go ahead and turn the table on the illegals entering the country and how the middle easterners will seep through the boarder and blend in with the illegals. Funny thing is that they are all coming across CANADA!!!! Where is the outcry for more security at the Canadian border?